Episode 4: Jana & Shannon - ProMicro SMP

This one is Inkredible 😉. In this episode we welcomed Jana and Shannon from ProMicro SMP  - Gold Coast based Scalp Micro Pigmentation artists.
 
Jana and Shannon are exceptional at what they do, with clients coming from across the country for their services. It's also the reason we wanted to get them on to the Gro Diaries Podcast, to discuss their expertise, the art of SMP, the industry in general (the good, the bad, the ugly) and how SMP and Hair Transplants can complement each other and don't need to be seen as a choice of one or the other.

We value other people within hair loss industry who are helping to make a difference in people's lives. Hair loss effects many and there are suitable solutions for most people out there. We want to shine a light on these solutions, whether they can be found within Gro or through another recommended provider.
 
We love to collaborate with others who are in the business of helping people overcome the anxiety, depression, stress and many other issues that come with losing your hair.

Check out Jana and Shannon on Instagram:
@jana.promicro
@shannon.promicro

Follow Gro on instagram:
@groclinics

OUR HAIR TRANSPLANT CLINICS:

AUSTRALIA:
Gro - Melbourne Clinic
Address: Level 1/893 Collins St, Melbourne, VIC, 3008, AU
Phone: 03 9081 5868

Gro - Sydney Clinic
Address: Level 3/80 Williams St, Sydney NSW, 2011, AU
Phone: 02 9194 0140

Gro - Brisbane Clinic
Address: Level 1/135 Wickham Terrace, Brisbane, QLD, 4000, AU
Phone: 07 3147 8174

Gro - Gold Coast Clinic
Address: 178 Ashmore Rd, Gold Coast, QLD, 4217, AU
Phone: 07 5625 3399

Regen by Gro - Pacific Fair Clinic
Address: Pacific Fair Shopping Centre, Shop 1502, Broadbeach Waters QLD 4218, AU
Phone: 07 5593 8360

Gro - Perth Clinic
Address: Suite 2/216 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA, 6010, AU
Phone: 08 9289 6825

NEW ZEALAND:
Gro - Auckland Clinic
Address: Level 1/96B Carlton Gore Road, Newmarket, Auckland 1050, NZ
Phone: +64 9 870 1760

Transcript

Introduction to Yana and Shannon

Hello everybody and welcome to the Gro Diary Podcast where we will take you on a journey breaking down stigmas, myths and misconceptions of all things hair loss. We'll have some discussions with people in the industry as well as clients and we'll share their experiences and journeys of hair loss, leading you to the ultimate destination of hair regrowth. Hey everybody, welcome to the Gro Dairy's podcast. We're here today with Jana and Shannon from Pro Micro SMP and we've got Marc here with me as always. So yeah, welcome to the podcast guys.

Thanks for having us. Nice to meet you.

Yeah, it's good to finally have somebody that isn't from Gro or got an association with Gro. So yeah, do you want to give us, both of you, give us a little background about who you are and where you've come from and your business?

All right, I started with Hairline Solutions over three years ago now. I got into the industry because my brother had SMP, hadn't heard of it before, had an argument with him about how stupid it was because no one had ever heard of tattooing the scalp. And when I saw it, I just thought it was the most incredible thing ever. And yeah, went and learned how to do it and sort of haven't looked back.

How old are you now? 40. 40? No you're not. No you are not. Just for the record. I can't believe you just asked a woman. It looks like you've been stolen 23 years to be honest. It's not like teenage boys. I've got a a son actually. No, I don't I need a drink of water in Warrington. I think the fountain of youth.

What about yourself Shannon?

So I started about three years ago. So it was my own personal hair loss that sort of got me into it. So that's eight years ago I had an SMP treatment. I'm fully bald. And so at that time there was only two providers in Australia. And I lost my hair at about 23, 24, and I hated it all through my 20s. It just really affected my life and dating and socially, work, everything. It just really affected it without me knowing, really. But then I reflect, I'm like, yeah, I really held myself back. Being bald, I just thought my mates had hair and I was just like, I don't know, just didn't like it. And so I saw SMP like over in the States and the UK and I thought, wow, I wonder if anybody's doing this in Australia. And so I went through a multitude of appointments. I went to transplant appointments. I was a full Norwood 6. And at the time, the transplant option was a bit out of my price range, to be honest. So I saw S&P, I thought, okay, cool, $3,000, give my hairline back. And yeah, it was great. Again in reflection I was sort of one of the first to get it done and it turned quite bad. It was just the early days of the treatment, we've come such a long way now. But anyway, that would spark my interest, I thought wow, this is just amazing. And then when I had the treatment done I was like wow, I'd love to learn that one day, but no one was teaching it or training it. And then since then I've done the hair system option, which I'm currently wearing. Yeah. Yeah, I've got SMP, I did some work on my side, so I'm kind of a hybrid of both. But I just love it, you know, it's such a beautiful thing. And then about, yeah, three years ago I overheard a friend talking about SMP training, she was doing the course. And I said to her, I said, where are you doing this training? And she told me at Hairline Solutions with Aaron. And yeah, I jumped straight into the next available course and yeah, it's just been full on ever since. And I met Jana and was speaking to her.

I actually took that call when you rang.

Yeah, you did.

Yeah. I know, I'll never forget that. And I loved art, so I loved drawing and design and never pursued anything like that out of school. So I found this combined both my passions of art and hair loss into the one thing and it's just yeah it's amazing. Yeah, so good. Do you feel like your personal journeys helped you in your career now? 100%. I can just relate to every guy that walks in. I just know exactly what he's thinking, what he's feeling, the apprehension, the nervousness, the excitement. It's just a whole concoction of feelings. And yeah, absolutely. Just being able to relate. Yeah, I'm the same. Like I was showing, Yana, before I was completely bald. And I started my journey, I was in hospitality and then joined Gro because of the journey that I went on. And it's so powerful now to tell people that have been in the same thing, so it's the same for you, it's pretty wild. On that, so you both did a course, you did a course Shannon, Yana, you were there at the time. What does that look like if someone wants to get into SMP? It's not like a tattoo license if you want to do conventional tattooing, right? It's a little bit different.

How SMP is different to cosmetic tattoos

It's probably more similar to your cosmetic tattoo courses. It's not regulated. So this is a reason for there being some substandard stuff getting around. It's really up to the individual to have a level of quality. The courses are still fairly basic. You get probably everything you need to know, but I think there are probably a lot of people that need a lot more coaching than a week of training. So it is, it isn't hard to get into, but it's not easy to master. I think you really have to put a lot of time, effort, money, blood and guts into it to really make it work.

The SMP Process

Yeah, I don't know if this is true. I feel like you sort of, you've got an artistic background, but I feel like if you had that predisposition for an artistic, you sort of seem to get it a bit quicker. Yeah I wouldn't say that's too dissimilar to, obviously we wouldn't know because I'm not a hair transplant doctor myself, but when we speak in the business about people doing hair transplants it always helps if they have I think you know some sort of background in because it's very meticulous work and very similar to yourself you know and spending a lot of time looking at one specific section and very detailed. So it's probably not, you know, the similarities are there with treatment. How long does someone spend it, like if for yourself, Norwood 6, how long are they spending in a chair? So we like to do like three sessions of about,  four or five hour mark per session, 12 to 15 hours total.

And then, yeah, so you're sort of building that density each now.

So you just add in layers, I guess, a little bit different each time as well.

Yeah, I've been picking up on anything that hasn't held quite right, but I think the way Shannon and I work isn't the same as how everyone else will work and there are people that work like us and there are people that aren't. Some people will bang it in over two hours and have people come back two or three times and it doesn't look the same obviously but everyone has a different I guess business model or expectation of quality or results. So that's what we do but you might find that differs with other providers.

How long does SMP last?

How long does it last?

That's a good question. So me and Jana find that we sort of give that three to five year warranty guarantee. It'll never disappear, it'll just lighten up over that period. I find the more natural the result looks straight out of the chair, it might not have the longest life on it. Some providers will just bang it in really hard, heavy and looks like it's painted on. You see that out there and you may get, you know, seven to ten years out of that. It doesn't look nice. It's not natural. It's not natural looking, it's painted on that Lego hat. Yeah, yeah. Whereas myself and you know I love to that really fine natural work that yeah we might see the guys again you know in three to five years but it looks beautiful. Yeah and the second time you get it done does it like has it bled during that process? Does it look the same going two or three times

over 15 years? That will depend on the work that's been done. So I've been finding some of my work that's been coming back, you know, three years later, it's a joy for me to work over it because it still looks good, it's just sort of settled and faded and softened. So it's easy to pick up over that, but then you get other work that, if they go too deep, that's when you get your blowing out and it's oversaturated and you get the funky blues and greens and it's blotchy and patchy that stuff's a real challenge Yeah, it really does depend on how the works been done as to how it's going to last and what it's going to look like in a few years time yeah

Technological Advances with SMP

Does it as the I guess that the technology? Since you guys started is that Kind of advanced and progressed and things that you've got to keep up with to keep up with the advancement Yeah, I feel in the early days a lot of the inks, needles, equipment was borrowed from brows, body tattooing. Last few years and even now it's still evolving, that's just its own industry now. So the pigment is specifically SMP, needles are specifically SMP, machines,

Is the process different with blonde hair?

everything, it's great. Yeah, that was one of the questions I was going to ask that too. If someone's got like, so I don't know when I think about SMP I always think of dark hair.

What about someone that's got like blonde hair or really fair hair? Do you do a different pigmentation in the ink that you use?

Just a different dilution. I did one today, I can show you later. It's pretty much blonde, grey, not much there at all. You can still do it. It looks great.

Yeah, cool. That's what you learn from the start. So with the shaved head treatment, you're trying to replicate the look of the very top of the follicle. I think hair colour is identified by the side of the strand. So no matter what hair colour you have, at that buzz cut level, everyone's hair colour is a shade of grey. So we've styled it out pigmented to be like a... So you can do a 60-year-old guy or an 18-year-old guy with red hair, blonde hair, black hair. Replicating that top of the follicle is always on the gray scale. That's how you paint.

I learned something.

I didn't know that. All SMP pigment is black. Sounds very hard, but once you dilute that down,

it creates a nice ashen tone.

Yeah, wild. So I guess for us, we try really hard at Gro to be a standout in the market through quality of what we do. In your industry, given that it's still, it's not super well known I guess. How do you stand out? How do you get people to know who to trust? If they're out there listening to this and they wanna get SMP, we've, I've personally seen a lot of really bad SMP, right? And so naturally like when we spoke originally on it, you gravitate to people who are good at it because I wanna be able to say to someone who can't have a hair transplant, hey go and speak to these people because they do an amazing job. They're few and far between from what I see in your industry. How do you stand out?

How to tell the difference between good and bad SMP

How do people cut through what's good and what's bad?

Million-dollar question if you can answer that. I'll give you my money. People don't know. I find that people who are learning about it, a lot of guys are kind of clueless with a lot of stuff like that, and they might feel a bit nervous or anxious or whatever. Sometimes you get guys that are just like, I'm just gonna go to the cheapest one that's closest to me.

Men are wildly impulsive like that.

Yeah, that's true. It's praise the day!

No! No!

So you'll get those, you'll get a handful of them that actually do their research and they will look. And I find some guys can't even tell the difference when they're looking at photos between a good and a bad treatment. They have no idea. They're like, oh, that guy looks great. I'm like, yeah, but zoom in, it's horrible. That's a bad example. That guy looks great.

Like to them, someone smiling with a hairline, they're not looking at the details.

We look at it more technically, especially in Zoom, and then we're like, you know, see

flaws or whatever.

But for the average guy, they're just like, oh, cool hairline.

Yeah, because a lot of artists I see out there are more interested in getting themselves in the photo of the after than just taking a photo of the after. They pop out and I'm like, why is that dude? Like, it's a trophy, like, hey, look at me with this guy. I think it matters as well that you actually care, like you actually care about the client and the journey that they're it's the same with us like I think you'll find with hair transplants it's not about a sale it's about you know helping that person.

Absolutely, I think we're a bit more introverted too like in that regard like we don't really want to be like hey look at me. But it's not about you, it's about the work.

I think too like you you've got a guy who's dealt with hair loss for years and self-conscious and hates it, then if you give him a bad SMP it's probably sometimes worse than being bald. Yeah. So now he's got double anxieties. And we feel the same way like when I sell a hair transplant for me it's about you know making sure that whatever I tell that person they're going to be fundamentally better not just straight after or in 12 months but in 5 and 10 and 12 years, right? Yeah. They're not going to end up worse off than they would be if they were bald. Because that weight of like knowing, especially for you, knowing that someone's, like how it feels to be bald and to go through that mental struggle of like how you look and hiding yourself and then to end up worse off to me, like I couldn't, I just can't sleep at night.

Yeah, but you'd get the same as what we do, guys, that end up in tears of happiness. And they're hugging you and they send you messages at Christmas just saying, you changed my life, just want to say Merry Christmas to you and your family, thanks again. That stuff's like, it's better than money. It's so enjoyable to see those transmissions.

The Average SMP Client

Do you get, would you say most of your clients would be struggling? Do they outwardly, do you have to, do you extract that? What is that like from a client perspective when they talk to you guys? I think very 50-50. Some guys are just like, oh yeah

sorry I just want to... Some guys are really like, yeah

hat on, walk in, live in the hat for years, don't look at you, very quiet. Can't answer the questions

And other guys are like, I just came here because my wife made me come.

Yeah, you've done this now.

It's a big range. And some people come in and they're like, I don't really care. It's just something to do. But when you start talking to them, they do care. Yeah.

How to Get SMP Treatment

Definitely. Always. And I always use myself as that example of like, oh, you know, I felt like this, I felt like that. And then they sort of resonate to that and it opens them up a little bit. Is there a consultation process? How does that go? Like if I want to go get SMP tomorrow, do I get a consult first? Do we talk about what that looks like or do you just book it in? What's the general?

We get a variety of things. So some people who might have someone they know that has had it done by myself or Shannon will just ring up and say just book me in, give me a price, book me in. Other people, a lot of them actually are price shopping, so they just want a price. So we'll just do sort of – they can send us photos. We ask them to come in. They're welcome to come in, but a lot of guys don't want to come in. They're not ready. So they can send some photos through and we can send a quote and start the conversation that way. Then I'd say probably only a – I don't know what percentage. There's a fair percentage of people that will come in for a consult and that's nice because then we can face to face like address their concerns connect You know let them know what they can expect or what we can do and offer a test patch So that that's there as well and some people are just happy with the price Through social media or messaging email and they'll be booking so it's a real range of things. Yeah, and when it comes to design

How SMP Artists Determine Your New Hairline

What does that look like so if I come in there, and I'm completely bald and I want a new hairline, is that something that I decide or something that, how does that general conversation go? Because I know for us, like in our industry, people come in and they might be 35 and you know where their baldness is going long term and we kind of have to talk them into a more conservative hairline because it's going to be age appropriate through the decades. Is it similar in your industry?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we sort of, I think we work together, like get the idea of what the client's looking for and then we sort of advise what we recommend would look good, age specific's really important. And yeah, we just want it to be totally undetectable and fortunately myself and Jana are really specialised in creating a beautiful faded hairline that just looks nice and natural, a bit distorted, broken. Not everybody can do that. So yeah, I think that's why a lot of guys come to us to create that look. So yeah, the design process is very, like you guys have a framework of working with the facial structure and stuff like that. But yeah, both.

Yeah, I think it's like, you know, you sort of collaborate on that a little bit. Some people have no idea what they want. So they'll say, I don't know, you just do what you do. You're the expert. So okay. And you can always visualise what's going to look good on them and other people have a very specific idea in mind. Usually that's okay. If it's not okay, then you kind of got to talk them out of it. Might not be the artist for you to do a rapper hairline when you're a white guy. But that stuff, you just talk through it and often we will bring it down in stages. So we might start the first session a little bit higher, a little bit more conservative. They can go home, have a look at it, see how they feel about having a hairline and where it's sitting and then give us our feedback of where they'd like it to go. We can bring it down but we can't bring it back up.

So it's within stages.

How SMP and Hair Transplants Complement Each Other

Yeah. What's the, I think, myself before I really knew anything about SMP or hair transplants before I was in this industry I'd always think of SMP or hair transplant, like it's got to be one or the other I know you see a lot of people that have had hair transplants or are having a hair transplant in the future or want a hair transplant in the future how would you say that instead of you know saying it's one or the other, SMP complements a hair transplant. Hand in hand. Yeah. Absolutely. This year is a massive increase in the combination of the two, it's actually phenomenal which is beautiful and exactly what you said mate, it's not one of the other anymore, it's a complement you know either before transplant, post transplant like having SMP there its amazing a lot of guys are saying I'm thinking of having hair transplant in the future but I want something now and I'm like that's great we can do that now. Have your hair transplant and the combination of two will look beautiful. Yeah. Or come see us after if you need a little bit more you know fullness, a bit more visual. Yeah. Density there. Because it does hide the scalp so it kind of takes that reflection off it right. So not everyone has, we were talking about it before we started but not everyone has unlimited amount of hair follicles. Some people's density is less than they would ideally want but they physically don't have any more in their donor to give. So that's when SMP can play a huge part in adding that density to it, right? Massive, mate.

Yeah.

It's been amazing. You're essentially taking some of the thickness from the back and putting it on the front so it's always going to be a bit thinner all over right? Like that's the premise of it.

How Hair Transplants Increase Density

Yeah so with a hair transplant, because everyone's kind of different right, so in a donor you can have anywhere from like what we would call low would be like 80 hairs a square centimetre up to 160 hairs a square centimetre in the donor. During a hair transplant generally we take 30 to 40% of what's available to put into your scalp. So for me, I actually had 12,500 hairs and my donor looks untouched. For others, if they took 12,000 hairs, they would never have a donor left, right? So that balance between what someone has versus then what it ends up looking like. But as Andy with his fresh skin fade, anything over a grade one and you wouldn't see anything in his donor area. At a zero you see those tiny little white dots right and you have to be looking for them. I go to the barber, they can't see them because they're not looking for it right and they're cutting my hair. But it is something you know those scars, those little tiny dots, SMP is a great option for someone that wants you know is a little bit younger that wants to have a skin fade. It makes a huge difference to it like

even the before and after photo you're kind of like wow that's really big difference. What I find too is that some people's skin will scar differently, so some people's skin you barely see anything and other people the scar tissue is more prominent so you will see it. And then the other factor I find with the SMP is some people have that really thick wiry hair. I find that gets a bit patchier. Sorry mate! Andy has got Afro hair. But yeah I think it makes a difference though. But yeah SMP just really just comes in and evens all of that out. Just sort of puts the icing on the cake of the transplant. That's how I see it. I see a lot of your guys grow and they're always like it's a compliment like the best and yeah yeah saying 100% like they're like wow yeah we've been commenting that even before we started talking like oh these guys are doing good job amazing yeah that hairline just said that beautiful fine hairline yeah just stunning yeah like but no one knows that we've had a hair transplant yeah I wouldn't be able to tell you know and then technology in our industries come a long way too. So, you know, the last even, well I had mine three years ago, in three years there's not

a single thing left in the surgery that they're doing today.

Really?

Yeah. So the implant is different, the extraction method is different.

You can see it coming through, we've made that distinction, you know, wow, this technology is definitely, they're doing such good work now as before it's always like oh geez barbaric you know.

How Gro Hair Transplants Differ From Older FUT Treatments

Yeah so with hair transplants I guess like you know when we talk about barbaric sort of hair transplants those old FUT surgeries that you know they're still used around Australia and some people go that way because it's cheap right it's half the price but the scars that are left you know the big strip scar are bad, is

that the hardest thing to cover when you do in your job? Yeah, some of them, again it depends on the hair around it, some of them you know

you can really make a big difference to it and others you know all you're going to be able to do is take the attention off it. Yeah. Someone might look twice but

it's not a miracle cure. Some are so like that. White and ink. And they have the lines you know almost like the big lines   

But those people that are tattooing into those scars generally fine... No, it's a challenge.

Yeah, it's definitely something you've got to get a skill for. I find scar tissue is fairly rejective as well. It can be quite receptive in parts, like it depends on the skin. So you've got to kind of go in easy on the first session and get them to come back and just see how that has settled and how that skin's accepted it. But most of the time I'd say I find it's kind of rejective that within, but you've got to go easy on it.

For sure. So when we do, like people come in and they want to put hair into scars like that, we always run them through like three PRP sessions into the scar first so that plasma then sort of

softens up that scar. No, what's good as well is just the physical act of needling the scar. I find sometimes just SMP over that scar, it's changed the physical nature of the scar. Because you've needled it, it's flattened out or it's the scar tissue just seems a lot better.

The PRP Process

It draws a bit of blood, maybe extra blood into that area perhaps. But it's one thing that we always do, so anyone who wants to like transplant into a scar, they always have to do generally PRP first just to make that scar a little bit healthier, you know. Can someone go in just the PRP? Yeah, for sure, yeah. We always recommend PRP, I mean I did about, I think I had about three or four PRPs before my hair transplant and I personally I feel like that helped. I feel like I got results quite early on with my hair transplant. Obviously everyone's different you know it can take you know between six to eighteen months to get the proper, you know, decent results and I was seeing good results at like five or six months that I would have been happy with if you know I didn't get any more growth and I do think other that you know I was taking medication as well but I do think that doing the PRP before the transplant and you know a couple of months after the transplant then you know I was benefited from that but yeah everyone's different and some people don't necessarily like PRP because it's not the most comfortable procedure but yeah. I have one and then always tell people that it's really good, I'll maybe get around to it one day, it's an interesting experience but you know it's like anything right it's probably the same as you know a million needles going into your head or you getting tattooed. I had it in my face once. PRP? You have a vampire

facial? Now we've got the secret to why you don't want it. My friend once a week. A friend

of mine is an injector nurse and she just wanted to practice I suppose. I had a little bit of it but I was like oh god that's painful. Yeah, so injectables mate, we're getting all their secrets.

How Does SMP Feel Like?

It's not that Warren Gary water. Is SMP, or is it like just getting a tattoo or do you use any anaesthetic or anything like that? No, we don't use any numbing agents or anything like that. I find it's 50-50, some guys will sit there and go to sleep.

So it feels nice. It feels nice, it's like a head scratch. And other guys are in a bit of discomfort. Yeah, they're like, some of these guys are full of tattoos, they're like, this is up there with that feeling.

I kind of liken it to those kids that don't want their mum to brush their hair and they scream when their mum brushes their hair saying it hurts, and other kids just don't care. It's like, I think it's just a different sensitivity. I mean, I guess you wouldn't really experience that because you're numbing everything, right?

How Do Hair Transplants Feel Like?

Yeah, so when it comes to a hair transplant, the only thing that's painful is the local going in. Some people really struggle with the local. It's like a bee sting, right? But we would do at the start of a hair transplant somewhere between 50 and 90 injection points of local anaesthetic because it's local plus adrenaline to just puff out the scalp a little bit. So then when you're working, you're not tapping on the skull.

Oh okay.

Yeah, so once a couple go in, in theory you shouldn't really be able to feel anything. You're need a your stomach for this job. In the frontal sort of hairline, that's where it kind of gets you. You know, you see grown men just tearing up. I fell asleep in the morning session after I'd had the anaesthetic and they were actually doing the extraction from the back of my head. I fell asleep. I think I'm pretty sure I woke up drooling at one point. It was a bit embarrassing. I definitely, I've got the worst. I'm so fidgety, I don't sit still at all. I'm like, no, no, I need to go to the toilet. I need this. Wouldn't be a good client for us then.

No, I'd annoy the sh#t out of you.

I'd annoy the sh#t out of you.

I was like, that was you, you know. Oh, Shannon was the worst.

Shannon, where is your, do you feel like you're at a point where your hair loss journey is in its place now, or do you think there's more, like, are you going to, do you think you'll explore a hair transplant again? What does your gut tell you where you're going on your journey? Good question mate. I feel quite content right now but I don't know this is looking into the future like

we just had a little girl, little

daughter and she's pulling my hair a lot lately and I'm thinking, oh this is going really bad. So that was the start of maybe I should do something permanent for the future or explore that.

Do you still battle with it?

Shannon Opens Up on Hair Loss Journey

Do you still feel like you're in a battle with hair loss? No. Fortunately, being in this industry, I know there's answers now and I've found some semi-permanent answers and yeah, which is cool. I don't anymore, no. anymore. No. And you guys, I just know there's solutions that I feel like doomed to one of the world balls forever, you know. There's always a solution now, which is great. But yeah, right now I'm okay, mate, but it has something that has come into my mind since having a little girl. And there is restrictions with the hair system, like you've got to be a bit careful swimming and you've got to re-bond every few months. There's a bit of work. So it does limit your lifestyle a little bit. So all those little factors play into it a little bit,

you think, you know, wouldn't mind selling a bit more.

Yeah.

They've come a long way though. I mean, it's not like, the hair system's not like it was, you know, in the 80s. But hair transplants as well, right?

I mean, the whole industry's kind of,

yeah, it's great, you know, it's such a good thing. Yeah, like on our last episode, I think Chris said that it's one of those things that you don't regret doing before. Like 20 years ago I wish I had a hair transplant or a wig because the hair systems have come so far and hair transplant's the same. I wouldn't know that you have a hair system on. That's good. I wouldn't, but I could. So where do you see the future of your industry? Do you think that it's going to get more legislated? Do you think that it's not?

I don't see it.

I'd like to think so. I don't see that happening because I know that the girls in the cosmetic tattoo industry have been pushing for the same for a long time. They've had numerous sort of, I guess, campaigns for it and I think all the council and government care about is that you're doing it safely, there's no cross-contamination infection like regulated all that sort of stuff, but as far as the art itself

Mm-hmm. I don't care what what it looks like. Why do you think that that's different from like tattooists? Why do you think that is such a big disparity between like what you guys do and what they do given the outcome if it's done badly? Could be the same

What do you mean? Because they have to get licenses, right, to be a tattooist?

Yeah.

It's like there's a, I guess, an apprentice program and stuff for them, right?

Why are SMPs not regulated?

I think there's a lot more to consider when you're doing your tattooing. Really digging that needle into the skin and, you know, implanting that ink into those deeper layers. Whereas what we do is probably more on the cosmetic end of things and more superficial, more micro.

So you keep it like semi-permanent solution.

Yeah, it's micro pigmentation. So we're not, you know, yeah, there's not a lot of difference really, I don't think at the end of the day. But yeah, I guess that's just how it is. I don't know how they could really regulate it if the industry is still being so young and new.

It would be nice if there was a standard, you know, where someone independent, you know, gave you that license, so you're good at this, you know, you're a recommended practitioner. So it kind of distinguished good and bad. It's good to see so many guys coming in that have had botched jobs elsewhere. It ruins your life, you know. Like we've had a few in point of being suicidal over it.

It's horrific. Yeah, like some sort of accreditation.

Yeah.

Like going to college and being a bricklayer. But you go to college for 12 months or whatever it is and learn how to... I think that kind of stuff thing would be unreal for the scalp microbes.

Yeah. I just think we've got a long way to go with a lot of that stuff. Yeah.

The treatment's been around for about 20 years in the States and the UK, but in Australia it's about 11, 12 years.

So it's still kind of in its infancy.

It's certainly really taken off in the last five and more so in the last two. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you see barber shops offering, you know, haircuts and micro, you know. But that's good. I mean, that to me is where, like, the concern comes from is that, you know, if a barber's just like, oh, I'm just going to add this onto my list of, you know, it takes away from the people who are genuinely skilled at it and they're just what, trying to make a little bit of extra money and offer another service, you know.

I guess it's like anything though, isn't it? If you want the best, you'll seek out the professional and you'll find it. But the concern is the guys are doing out their garage, their bedroom or apartment on the carpet, you know, like the people getting away with doing that.

Yeah, but like you say, there's no one regulating it, right?

So they can just do whatever they want.

The council would, I suppose, if someone dubbed them in, but that's as far as it'll go. And that's just infection control, it's got nothing to do with the procedure itself.

Why You Can't Do SMP Yourself

A lady come in a few weeks ago and she had cancer and had chemo and was really thin. And she said, she was like, oh, my friend just had a crack at it. And she's a braille tech, and I just know it's not right though. Like I just, I really appreciate doing it, but I just want it done properly. So there's a lot of that sort of stuff.

Yeah, the ones that buy the gun off Amazon.

Yeah, some of them have a crack themselves.

Get their mates to do it.

Hang on a minute, what do you mean?

It's really bad.

I was getting Amazon, you understand, hang on, they go on Amazon and buy an SMP gun.

Don't anyone take notes here. You're going to end in disaster. Trust me. I guess when people see it and they're like, oh that looks so easy, just put on heads and you see people, because I was involved in the training groups for a while there, you see the trainees come in and they're like, oh, I'm going to be the best at this, so you just wait. And then you can see their face drop when they start actually tattooing someone's scalp. They're like, oh, this is actually really, really, really hard.

Yeah.

You can make it look easy but it's repetition and many, many hours of practice to get that sweet spot every time.

Yeah. And you guys do unreal work, like it is. You look at it and you're like, this is people who are genuinely passionate about what they're doing. Yeah, thank you. Excellent. And that's why we wanted to get you on and have a chat and sort of get your industry out there because it does complement us so well and hopefully you know you guys continue to be bright stars and otherwise you know cloudy place sometimes. It is a shame that those things do exist because I feel like we're at a stage now especially the past 12, well I don't know couple of years you know where men have started to open up a bit more about hair loss you know that stigma attached to it but men are a lot open now to finding a solution and if they find someone that's good at it like yourselves or you know hopefully that like they do it Gro then that's on that's only a good thing for their mates but everybody else that sees it but then when you see yeah when you see somewhere something that that's not good it might just put someone off having that conversation and just, you know, you know what, it's a bad idea, I'm just going to shave my head. Yeah. And whereas there are actual good solutions out there like yourselves and Gro and others as well. But for every good one, there's 20 bad, both in both our industries, you still have to wade through and try and reconnect people with what's possible, right? Also, we try to offer the mentoring to existing students rather than try to pump out a whole bunch of new ones because we're looking into getting into that more. It's just supporting the industry that we're in and the people that are in it. There's so much scope for improvement. Let's all do it. And there's no harm in sharing that and growing all your competitors because it makes the industry look better. Everyone talks about it in a more positive way,

so it just, it works for everyone.

Is SMP Industry Competitive?

Yeah, how is that? Like, do you, is it competitive? Is it like, you know, like your competitors or people who offer similar procedures,

do you have dialogue with them?

Yeah, we've got a pretty good community. Like, there's a different range of things out there. There's a lot of people out there who, there's a lot of really big personalities and egos and I guess some people don't like to connect with everyone else, but Shannon and I are always open to it. We love chatting to other artists and yeah, they might be kind of competition, but at the end of the day, there's an artist for everyone and what someone might feel comfortable with me and Shannon, they might not feel comfortable with them and vice versa. So I feel like, and there's price ranges as well and there's definitely some great artists out there. You can't run on everyone. There's definitely some really good ones out there for sure and we've seen that amongst some of our peers. But we'd love to see as a whole the improvement across the board. There's just so much to – we think, oh, what can we do better? But every now and then, we'll just go, wow, we've just jumped another level. We're just levelling up and it's so exciting when you do that and you get better and better. I just like to see everyone else feel that same way.

Yeah, that's a real committed – all the artists out there, they really love it and passionate about it.

Yeah, we love talking about it amongst ourselves and even when we're not working, we're still talking SMP.

Yeah, pretty obsessed with it, to be honest.

Yeah.

That's good. That's what you need isn't it? It's a passion for the industry and for helping people at the end of the day. Yeah, that's what it is. It's another industry where you're helping, right? It's that sense of achievement of like seeing someone walk in the first time with their hat on to then coming back the third time, you know, almost done and the hat's gone and you can already see that glow and that confidence.

It's like a drug, hey? We've spoken about this before. It is. It's like changing someone's life. You know you've done a great job and they're so happy, there's no better feeling.

Yeah, no. Bring in the next one. Get up, I need my hits.

Motivation for Hair Transplant Treatments

That's what drives us, that's what I love about working every day, is that like genuine feeling of changing someone's life or having a part in changing someone's life for you. It's a little bit more direct because you're the one doing it, but I think that's infectious and if that's what drives you every day, then you're driven into it better, right?

Better and better and better and better and better and better.

Yeah, and some days I'll leave, like, it's a great day, beautiful sessions, everyone's happy, and I walk to the car, I'm like, I can't believe I'm paid to do this.

I feel bad, you know, this is great.

I think it's to take the money. Yeah, the money. The best feeling in the world.

How Shannon Started in SMP

What did you do before this?

It's was totally different mate. So I worked in the fitness industry, supplement industry. I did that for about 10, 15 years. Yeah. And that was great. That was a bit of self-improvement as well, which I loved. I just knew, yeah, there was a time for a change for me in career and yeah, I'm just so happy the way it all played out and I was able to fall into it. So yeah, I met some beautiful people like Yana.

You just stand there.

She's not picking up the table.

She's like standing through gridded.

I do feel really blessed to be working with Yana because...

And vice versa.

I think he's serious this time.

But she's amazing and like I don't think I would have got to the level I've got without her. Like I feel very fortunate. I didn't have that to witness. That's shaped who I am as an artist.

Oh thank you. But I'll say the same thing. Like it's sort of like I say, iron sharpens iron. If I didn't have someone as great an artist as Shannon to work with, I don't know if I would have kept at it. You need someone to keep you going. So, yeah, it's been really good.

They sound like you and me, bro. I love you so much, Andy. I'm a high D and he's a high S, so he needs constant feedback. You're doing a great job, Andy.

Shannon's Final Thoughts

He needs the odds, like, reigning in and out. job. They all like reigning in it. It's a tricky challenge. When you think about that, just on that, you had your hair transplant the first week I started working for Gro. So I've been on like my journey the whole the whole way and it kind of aligned with when I started with Gro and we know each other kind of outside of work as well. So it's good working, it helps a lot working with people that you get along with. Yeah. Have you got any thoughts you want to leave us with Shannon? I just I touched on a bit earlier but I just said it's a massive increase in the different applications of SMP this year ladies and men pre-post transplant even just guys just starting. I just love seeing that come through, that it's not just that shaved head treatment anymore, it's just broader, which is fantastic. And yeah, I reckon we should just touch quickly on ladies because women's hair transplants are kind of complicated. It's not quite as straightforward as men given the type of hair loss that they might have or you know female pattern baldness tends to go in different areas to what men's does and they don't have that clear defined donor area they can tend to thin all over. So from an SMP you know solution perspective for women what does that look like?

Does SMP Create Dramatic Changes?

Do you see like dramatic? It depends. So I think Shannon the client you had recently, I thought that was a fairly dramatic difference for

her.

It was a really good transformation. But if they've got really fair hair and it's long, you can only really do so much. But often it's enough to make them feel so much more confident about themselves. It's very similar to men's density, really. You know, there's no difference in what we can do to kind of create that more thicker, fuller look because you're disguising the contrast between the scalp and the hair. That's all you can do.

Yeah, it's sick. I feel like, yeah, it's interesting how ladies feel when they come in. Like I feel like guys, it's not okay but it's sort of accepted, okay, guys lose their hair. Whereas I feel some of the ladies feel even more psychologically psychologically like, oh, I'm a very rare minority here. It affects them quite a lot. So having a solution to give is lovely.

Yeah, and they're always so grateful to us. They are the best one.s And they are the best because they never complain about pain. They never complain about the pain.

I like the artistic there.

So there's a bit of frontal loss there. Well, we'll share your Instagram page as well on this podcast.

It's pretty dramatic.

Yeah. Nice shirt. Yeah, we'll chuck some in if she doesn't mind sharing them. Yeah, it's fine. We'll chuck a few examples up. Yeah, it's a good solution for women. Do you find that, well, we're going to wrap up in a minute, but I'd like to talk. So, do you find that women gravitate to you, or do you think, do they care?

I don't think so. I don't know.

Shannon's like, yeah, nah.

I feel like we've done the equal amount.

Yeah. I never get the vibe off a female client that's like, oh, I wish I was with a girl.

Shannon's pretty approachable. He's a nice, soft personality where it's not like a big-bellied man.

You're a good-looking big-bellied man. You're not scary, but you're not small.

He's not body-sensitive. You make everyone feel comfortable. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I don't think anyone's ever, I don't know. That's good.

Yeah.

Yana's Final Thoughts

Any thoughts you want to leave us with?

I'm really glad we did this and I think it's really awesome to sort of connect the two industries a bit more and open that conversation between hair transplants and SMP as well as maybe between other competitors in the industry or other people in the industry. It's good to talk about this stuff, you know, community over competition. There's so much to learn from everyone.

Yeah. There's one thing we want to do with this podcast is obviously we want to kind of shine a light and just talk about the industry in general. This podcast is hopefully there to help. If it helps one person, then great. For us, our passion is men's health and helping and supporting females when they need us but opening that door to all kinds of conversations and finding the right solution for everybody who's out there. So yeah, and that's what gets us out of bed every day I think. I think it's great as you said, just breaking down that barrier of just guys not being scared to approach the topic and come in for consultation with you guys or us. Yeah. You know, just to sort of not just sit with it for so long just to feel

comfortable like yeah we talk to

people every day about just like the

guy that comes in there's another guy before you it's just like you so it's not nothing to feel ashamed of nothing just yeah have a chat yeah awesome I'm glad we did it as well yeah it's been a pleasure it's nice to meet you both yeah hopefully we get to do it again soon yeah cool we'll share your Instagram

handles and things as well on the podcast.

Thanks for joining us. Thanks for coming. Thank you guys. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Gro Diaries podcast brought to you

by Gro Prescription Hair Care. If you would like any more information on hair loss or anything discussed in this podcast please visit groclinics.com.au for all your hair regrowth needs.